Inquiry regarding ClickIncome Program

I guess I should have did some research before my wife and I went to one of their seminars. I paid the $99 for the ability to buy things wholesale on "Clickclub". I found all 50 items I researched cheaper somewhere on the web than "my special wholesale price". Any suggestions on how I notify them that I want out. I only paid the $99, and I'm still inside my 3 days, unlike some of the other people that got roped into the $3995. I have a question for anyone out there that is in the Executive program, have you had success getting people to sign up for merchant accounts and the "free" websites?

Savajo -

I have sort of built a Web Site through click income. However I have been on/off active duty military an unable to utilize the service I purchased (Yet). I am dis-heartened to see these types of postings as I also purchased the executive package ($3995). I did not allow myself to purchase further help/assistance as I am savvy enough to deal with most of my own programmming. I was intending to utilize the credit card merchant account services. however, I never purchased this service because I was told by a Mike Syme (Clickincome Presenter) that I could use existing services with my Clickincome executive membership. I have recently been trying to contact clickincome (again) to assist me with my web building. The first scheduled appointment to modify and assist - Victor of clickincome never called. He called later and apologized, but I was not able to reschedule for my free counseling. I do believe Victor is now non-existent with the company. Today I am awaiting a call from CI - as they have locked me out of my account - yet they still take my money (Charge my Credit card). Yonder Alaska

My question to those still monitoring this forum is what did you expect from the program that you didn't get? Do you feel ashamed that you didn't take the time to read the contract? Or are you trying to get something for nothing? I've looked into Clickincome and have seen their reputation and have talked with their people. At the end of the day who's to say where the Karma will fall? Since this forum seems to thrive on the anonimity, I will refrain from divulging that information as well but come on people, what did you really expect?
My take on Clickincome is that they are an educational company first and a hosting and services provider second. I own a yahoo! store that I pay over $200 a month to keep running. Not to mention my designer and programming fees which set us back just under $20k. Now, we are looking to move to a more versatile system that allows us to take control and Clickincome seems like one of the best options out there. The seminar is not the place to make a final decision, the final decision should have been made before you got there and after you had a chance to look over their product.
I've seen companies that are the size of Clickincome with a lot worse records than what they have. But here's the simplest question to ask yourself: Do they provide what you need? We all know that all you're going to hear on the Internet and these types of forums is nothing but the negative. I was actually surprised to hear a couple of people chime in and stand up for them, so they must have some people that are loyal and willing to go to bat for them. So if they're trying to help people and are growing and experiencing pains in that process, well let me tell you, I know what that feels like. I've talked to only a couple of their representatives and I've been extremely pleased. So if they have what you need, go for it and put your heart and soul into it. Plain and simple.... best of luck to all out there trying to make the internet their new home business!

Please participate the "pre-launch" site www.megastake.com and help us. It has go a very good review from ‘Press Relase Newswire’ PRWeb a leading online business magazine.
Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by bluejay

That is exactly what I did. I sent a registered letter to the Aria Financial who set up my merchant account asking that it be closed. Also instructed my bank to stop paying the fees. Next thing I know I get a call from a collection agency saying that I owe $250. I ask what for and they got very rude. I called the co. I sent the letter to and was told that they had nothing to do with the merchant account although they set it up. They referred me to Cardservice Int. When I called them they said I had signed a contract for a year and these were fees I owed for closing my account early. I did not get a copy of the contract when I signed it, so they faxed it to me. I did indeed sign it the night I signed up for Clickincome. I asked that they send me a breakdown of the fees. They never did. I paid the total to get the collection agency off my back. I have also canceled all other services that were charging fees. I asked Clickincome to close my account, however, the site is still open, with a note posted by me that my store is closed.

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Aria Financial, the collection agency, WNSI and other associated entities are all owned by the same crooked company of scam artists - Pangaea Group. Clickincome is a "sting" operation, in my opinion. Because it is based in Utah, given the laws of that state, nothing is going to be done about them, at least not until Utah law changes. Since Utah recently passed legislation that makes this sort of theft even easier to operate legally, that probably will never happen.

We attended one of their seminars out of curiosity. I had just retired from thirty years as a criminal investigator and was considering something small to do in my spare time. I was curious as to whether the operation was legitimate or not and what they were really selling. It was clear from the first hour or so, before the break, that they were selling more than these little websites and the drop-shipping crap, and I wanted to see what that was. I read one of their contracts during the break - people were lining up to sign, so it was easy enough to blend in. I was shocked at the contract, and knew these people were about to get hosed but good. After the break, we reconvened in the seminar room, even though it was only supposed to be for the people who had signed up. Here came the high pressure for the real product they were "selling" - the merchant accounts. The tip of the iceberg price was $2,500. Anybody can get a merchant account to run credit cards, including the basic equipment, for about $800 or so. Then, of course, their package has a ton of hidden costs and they just start piling on the charges. I had to cover my mouth so that the host wouldn't see me laughing when he assured the audience that they shouldn't worry, he could almost guarantee that everybody's credit, even if it wasn't real good, would be accepted. Listen folks, the only thing they want your credit application for is to get all your credit card, income and banking information so they can see how much cash and credit they can hose you for. It helps them manage their manpower - which suckers should be concentrated on because they have some money as opposed to other suckers with less or little resources. They also want to know when you've been drained so they can focus on newcomers with some money. Once they've drained your resources, they move you to a different category that is just for continued billing and collection harrassment.

Listen up, people: these things are like huge spider webs that people escape from either by being bankrupted or having their credit ruined by the scammer's private "collection agency" that probably doesn't follow federal consumer protection laws. When you give them your banking and credit card information, it's easy for them to find out what your card limits and your bank account balances are, and they don't stop until you're dry. Even if you try to cancel during the 72-hour cancellation period, you're still stuck because they will claim you didn't return the program binder or it wasn't in good condition, etc., and then continue to charge your accounts. Then they further try to indebt you to them even more by selling different levels of membership that cost thousands. It's endless. There's a reason they host the seminars on Friday nights - they want you to have as little time as possible to check on them through legitimate business and governmental resources during that 72-hour period, and those places aren't open on the weekends. If you call on Monday, you may not get answers until Tuesday or Wednesday, and by then it's too late. A dead give-away as to what they're up to is that at the Friday night seminar they repeatedly tell those who signed up during the break to NOT bring their binders to the Saturday morning meeting. That's because they don't want you to be able to turn it back in if you show up Saturday to cancel your contract. If I recall correctly, the contract even says you agree that it can only be returned by mail, although there may be law stating they have to take it from you in person if you present it to them unused within the 72-hour cancellation period.

It was about two years ago that we attended the seminar, and I looked into the company ownership and the company's other entities. It's all on the internet., folks. The answers are there. I run their names on the internet from time to time to see if they're still operating, just out of curiosity and with the hope that eventually the feds will shut them down. So far, sad to say, they're still running this scam, and they're certainly not the only ones out there doing this sort of thing. When people complain, they call them losers and tell them it's their fault they don't know what they're doing and that they are looking for something for nothing or just don't want to put in the effort to make a go of it.

Caveat emptor, people!!

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Originally Posted by Internet Master

How does one refund knowledge? If I get a Masters Degree and then make nothing of it, do I go back to my college and demand a refund because what they gave me "didn't work"?

Just to clarify here, I have used all types of template sites and am very familiar with various programs out there. There are many programs, and methods sold daily to make money online. Some are very good and make money for people in general. Other are good, but some people don't get them and don't make money while others make tons of money with the same information and tools. For readers information clickincome has a package of many products that are sold together. The template website is only one part of the package. The rest is educationally based, and is knowledge that once heard is known. Many internet business companies have packages with many parts. All companies who have large numbers of customers get some complaints for all types of reasons. Take a look at Googles complaints to see what I mean. Or any other top notch company. They all have complaints at some point. Now those reasons may be valid. And if there are problems with any company the problems need to be fixed. With all of the things businesses hear and see it is of interest to note some of the very same situations produce different results for different people. The tools, info, or whatever it is, may be just so so and yet some use that for success and do well with whatever they did have to work with. Others can have the best of the best and never succeed. Ripping off knowledge then asking for a full refund on it is just as bad as any poor product rip off. If I buy a CD and open it then listen, it isn't going to be accepted in a return. Neither will a computer software program after I have opened it used it, then want my money back. Knowledge can't be returned. Sure, a company can give back money anyway and eat the loss to fend off tantrums of unmotivated people who want it all for nothing.
My guess is that if a company said no....some people would start huge tantrums because they don't get what they want. Besides, they spent money, don't get it and now will take the loss because of their lack of motivation or of being overwhelmed by the immensity of what it really takes to start a successful online business.

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The customer is always right.

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Originally Posted by ClickQuestions

My question to those still monitoring this forum is what did you expect from the program that you didn't get? Do you feel ashamed that you didn't take the time to read the contract? Or are you trying to get something for nothing? I've looked into Clickincome and have seen their reputation and have talked with their people. At the end of the day who's to say where the Karma will fall? Since this forum seems to thrive on the anonimity, I will refrain from divulging that information as well but come on people, what did you really expect?
My take on Clickincome is that they are an educational company first and a hosting and services provider second. I own a yahoo! store that I pay over $200 a month to keep running. Not to mention my designer and programming fees which set us back just under $20k. Now, we are looking to move to a more versatile system that allows us to take control and Clickincome seems like one of the best options out there. The seminar is not the place to make a final decision, the final decision should have been made before you got there and after you had a chance to look over their product.
I've seen companies that are the size of Clickincome with a lot worse records than what they have. But here's the simplest question to ask yourself: Do they provide what you need? We all know that all you're going to hear on the Internet and these types of forums is nothing but the negative. I was actually surprised to hear a couple of people chime in and stand up for them, so they must have some people that are loyal and willing to go to bat for them. So if they're trying to help people and are growing and experiencing pains in that process, well let me tell you, I know what that feels like. I've talked to only a couple of their representatives and I've been extremely pleased. So if they have what you need, go for it and put your heart and soul into it. Plain and simple.... best of luck to all out there trying to make the internet their new home business!

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It's apparent that Clickincome is monitoring this site. Certain themes have emerged......

His employees kept contacting me under false names, trying to extract personal information after I had written a letter to the local paper about this scam. (google clickincome and scam and you'll find the letter.)

I got this today from the 'president' of clickincome. I find it odd that a 'president' of a company supposedly that large would waste time with someone who wrote a letter to a local newspaper about this scam. It only seems to reinforce their need to try and squelch information about what a scam this is. They are up to 121 BBB complaints filed against them. I hear the FTC is investigating them. If you trace the money trail it goes back to a real estate scam seminar company.

I suggest anyone who has been scammed contact this 'president' directly to get your money back.

Brian McAdam

Dear Cheryl,

I am the founder and CEO of Clickincome, Inc. Cheryl this year my company is celebrating it's 14th year in business. I can sincerely say to you that I have not been able to accomplish this without providing a legitimate, good and ethical services. I have received from our Executive Vice President information and files on all your blogs, web sites and other posting that you have created in regards to Clickincome. You have never purchased, nor participated in any of our programs, yet you have a great distain for Clickincome. I understand that there was an incident at one of our events in Alaska that you attended that may have been the catalyst for your ill feelings toward Clickincome. I sincerly ask you to allow me to, and help me understand what went so wrong.

Please allow me to speak with you. I consider myself a very understanding and reasonable person, and would appreciate the opportunity to hear and learn from you your thoughts about Clickincome. If there are inadequacies within Clickincome I would ask for you help in making us better rather than having conflict with you.

Please contact me. I look forward to our conversation, and creating something positive from a negative. I believe that there are workable solutions and that we could create something together that would become a benefit for many.

Thank you for your consideration.

Brian McAdam

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Originally Posted by ClickQuestions

The seminar is not the place to make a final decision, the final decision should have been made before you got there and after you had a chance to look over their product.

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I attended a seminar last night in Mobile, Alabama. I missed a Mardi Gras parade to addend, which was a mistake. The seminar was billed as an ebay seminar, and when ebay was minimized and clickincome became the focus I got suspicious. When the presenter began to sound like a snake oil salesman (remember Mr. Haney on Green Acres?) I knew I had wasted an hour and 15 minutes and some of the folks that were foaming at the mouth in there were going to lose some money. I read this thread today and am glad that I was not seduced.

Glad i read this thread. I will keep an eye out for clickincome : )

I haven't checked this website for awhile. I was so stressed dealing with Clickincome, that I had to take a rest. I just thought it was ironic that Brian McAdams, Pres. had the time to write to Ckirk, who was not a customer, and didn't bother to answer the certified letter I sent to all the officers about my complaints! I am now clear of them and waiting to make sure that my credit was not harmed by their tactics. A few months ago they returned to my city and I sent the full page ad to eBay with a note stating that one would assume from the ad that they represented eBay, and that they could check out this web site for more information. Hope they did. I have not heard anything from eBay. Tell everyone you know to beware!

Today there is a full page ad for starting an online business. Since I got taken by Clickincome, I thought I would check this one out. it is O2I, L.L.C. I haven't been able to find it on-line, nor does it say in what state it is located so you can check the BBB. Any suggestions how to find out more about it? Do they just do this so you can't check them out before you attend their free seminar? Does anyone have any info about them?

OK - Latest Victim here. Just finished scrubbing the "STUPID" sign off my forehead, so decided to post.

Yep... we got sucked in. Just for the record, so as to put all doubters and naysayers to rest, I AM a successful businessman. I have owned a brick and mortar retail store for over 20 years, and I have been moderately successful. My wife saw the "BIG AD" in the newspaper, asked me about it, and I said "go for it". She has been a stay-at-home mom for 11 years and, now that the kids are both in school, we thought that this might be a way for her to make some extra income for us and still stay at home.

She went to the Friday seminar... it is ClickIncome..., paid the $99.00 (plus the $20.00 for some software) on a credit card and came home excited. She wanted me to go to the Saturday morning seminar. Though I had plans, I rearranged my plans to attend. We both went to the seminar and, at the end, everyone was handed a set of contracts, agreements, etc. to fill out. I had to go... I had someone on their way to do some work at the house and had to leave. I told her, "If you really want to do this, etc. go ahead."

Before she signed anything I talked to the speaker and asked, "I don't have time to review any of the material, and I have to go... is there any way we can 'think about it' and get this same deal later?" (they had a "Seminar Special", just for "Our City", and it was less upfront, higher percentage of the future sales, etc.), He said "no" and that should have been enough of a warning sign to not proceed. But I succumbed to the pressure and my wife's temporal excitement, and I gave in. She signed up for everything but the kitchen sink, and came home.

Later than night I started doing some research on the web on the company. As you all know, there is enough negative information out there to fill the Library of Congress. So, that evening I started the process of unwinding everything that we had done. As it turns out I have spent the entire day writing cancellation notices, calling banks, credit card companies, their "financial" group (Aria Financial Corp.), and the company phone numbers to rid ourselves of this nightmare. We have stopped payment on the 2 checks we wrote, cancelled that bank account, cancelled payment on the credit card charges, sent via certified mail the THREE separate cancellation notices required, and spent the rest of the day reading this and other blogs to see what other information I can glean to distance myself as far as possible from this whole experience.

It scares me a little to find out that other's have had their credit cards banged over and over again, and it seems like I will have to pay close attention to my bank accounts and credit cards for months to come. I contacted my attorney and he told me that, first and foremost, follow the terms of cancellation "TO THE LETTER" before I do anything else. Then, after I have completed all requirements, to forward the information to them. This law firm is HUGE and, if it turns out that a class action suit is in order, they have the resources to follow it through. I will keep a close eye on this forum and hope that the information provided herein will help others. Unfortunately, by the time most people read this they will have, at the least, been suckered into wasting their time, if not money, on this (at best) unscrupulous entity.

wow terrible story, maybe it's worth to open new section in the forum something like: famous scams

Just a helpful hint:

When I talked to my attorney he gave me some good advice. He said that the most important thing I could do is read, study, and understand EXACTLY what the terms and conditions of the "Notice of Cancellation" were, follow them to a "T", and send in everything required as per their cancellation instructions... and do it immediately.

There is a law that, if a company or person is selling something outside their place of business... be it at your home, in a hotel, or whatever, that you have a 3 day right to recind. The terms of the recision are spelled out on the back of a ClickIncome contract. If you decide to cancel, follow their instructions exactly. In my case, because I bought the whole package, there were actually three different agreements / contracts that I had to cancel, and all three had to be put in seperate envelopes and sent out certified mail. The addresses were all the same, but they went to 3 different suites in the same office building.

Then, after all that was done I forwarded copies of everything I did to the law office. He said that, in the event that it had to go to court, I would have to use a referral law firm out of Utah because they couldn't practice law in Utah. Fortuantely I have had this legal service for almost 20 years and, in the event that I do go to court, I will have coverage.

So, just a word to the wise... if you are going to cancel, make sure you do it according to the specific terms of cancellation and within the time frame (3 business days) that they specify. Also, in case you didn't know (I didn't), Saturday is considered a business day, at least in California. Since most of these seminars occur on the weekend you may need to take that into consideration.

I and three friends were also frauded by clickincome. I feel sorry for anyone who gets involved with this organization, if I had done my home work before, I would have realized that all the companies clickincome have been associated with or link with from the clickincome website, have no substantial credibility, but have evasive and elusive contact information, and even the "president" of the company isn't honest about who he is (bryan mcadams) is actually the owner. Thru my research (contacting Utah consumer Protection) he is facing charges and has experienced a tremendous amount of heat and it is just a matter of days before he is indicted. I paid almost $12,000 dollars to them and encouraged some of my friends to do the same, I feel responsible for there loss. I have a high profile attorney in the salt lake area who is preparing a class action against the company with over 61 people nation wide signed on! Stay tuned! but more importantly Stay away!

I sent an email to the guy who did the presentation, telling him, after consulting with my attorney, we were cancelling out contract, stopping payment on our checks, closing thebank account, cancelling the credit card, etc. Here is his response:

sorry to hear that
i hope your attorney is a wealthy man
he gave you bad advice in my opinion.............
but what do i know....i am no attorney...... but, i probably make more then most of the lawyers in my town ;o)
i can do nothing for you on the cancelation side
follow the instruction on the pink forms and good luck

My wife and I disagree on the intimation of this response. When you read it, what do you think he meant?

re: CLICK INCOME...
I guess my husband and I were suckers and joined this January 2007, for the "small" sum of $4,000.
At the time, our computer was being repaired at Best Buy, and we could not research ClickIncome on the internet within their 3-day cooling-off period.
At this juncture, I am just wanting to GET SOME BENEFIT out of this thing.
We were supposed to receive merchant accounts, website support, and be incorporated free of charge (both registration fees and legal fees supposed to be covered by our "package"). I CAN'T GET AHOLD OF THEM.
H-E-Y... I'm just wanting to network with people like us who have been stung... maybe launch a class-action case or something, if I'm not going to receive what I was promised. ARE YOU INTERESTED???
I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM ANY OF YOU WHO WANT TO DO THE SAME.
Let's get together and take action on this, even if it's just shutting then down through goervnment agencies, as a fraudulent organization.
-------P.S... there are some interesting comments for Click at the www.bbb.com Utah. Check it out.

ooops... I posted an earlier comment re: Click Income (just now).
===forgot one thing===
In terms of forming some sort of coalition, we are in Green Bay, WI.
Although I'd be interested to work with anyone across North America to get
what we signed up for from ClickIncome, I AM SPECIFICALLY INTERESTED IN PEOPLE LIVING IN GREEN BAY, like myself.
LET'S TAKE THE MASKS OFF AND GET TO THE BOTTOM OF THIS!!!
I am determined.

Does anyone kow how to find out where / when they are appearing in upcoming seminars? They don't publish anything on their website as to when and where their next seminar will be.

ClickIncome is scheduled for Las Vegas May8-10. I am signed up for May 10 and thanks for your many thoughts I go armed with the "facts".. Thank You!

Questions:

1. How did you find out about the seminar in Vegas? Was it in the local paper, or did you find it another way?

2. Who is the speaker?

If there is a link to a newspaper article please post it. If it's an "Advertorial" it will probably have a story about a certain individual who has been "successful" that is highlighted... he or she is usually the one who is speaking.

It was in the Las Vegas Review Journal Newspaper for May 3, 2007, page 15A as a full page ad. It doesn't list a speaker but has several stories of people who are successful and one who is making $10k per month. They are offering a free digital camera and 2 CD's in their internet Tool Kit as well. This seminar is offered in 4 locations over the 3 days. The Sandy, UT BBB has some 140 complaints over the last 36 months for this company. It is worth the look. ClickIncome is based out of there.

Is one of the people in the advertorial a guy named Mike Symes? If so he is probably going to be the speaker.

Clickincome is a typical pyramid scheme. They bait you into thinking it is a seminar on making money through Ebay. After you sit through the first day and pay your $99.00 (or whatever it is this week) they bait you to come to the next day's seminar where they will "reveal the secrets of making big $$$". When you go to that seminar you are reeled into the program. The program is that you sign up, give them $4000, sign up for merchant services at exorbatant rates, and scan phish ebay sellers to try to get them to sign up for a "free" website. Once you get a positive response from an ebay seller, they hound the person and, if they sign up for the program, you make a commission. And on, and on it goes.

These guys are good... very good at baiting and enticing you into getting into the program. Be very careful if you go... you might be surprised at how gullible you can be if you are not aware.

Your are correct. The ad has Mike Symes as the lead story saying he is an single father, ebay expert, and making $10k some months. Thanks for the great advice. I ususally leave all my ID and credit cards at home when I attend these events and thus can just walk away saying, sorry I'm ID-less, haven't got any $$/or cards. Later..

See if you can senak in a micro-cassette recorder. They will tell you there is not "videotaping or recording" allowed because, if you sit through both days, you will find that they are teaching people to do (among other things) an end-run around Ebay's policies. They teach you to phish people off of ebay and try to get them to set up a website that will direct customers away from their ebay ad and sell direct off of their own website.

Nothing wrong with that, I guess, but the way that they teach it is, at least on the surface, not ethical. Ebay, for all its ills, is a legitimate business. If you don't think their advertising fees are "fair" you can go somewhere else and advertise your product. To use them by setting up a "faux site" on Ebay and then directing them away from it and never have intent sell items via your listing is, IMO, unethical. I think people should either use Ebay as it was intended or step up to the plate, put your website together, pay for the exposure, and promoto products through it... or a combination thereof. But the way these guys tell you to do it is by side-stepping ebay's policies and doing it "their" way.

Also, if you had a recording of what they say it may very well be useful to others who are putting together a class-action suit. You could remain anonymous, ask for anyone interested to donate to the cost of the tape, and help out others. I wish I would have had mine with me when I went, but I had no idea what I was in for. Fortunately I am out of it (at least for now) and don't expect any further repercussions, but others may not be so fortunate.

I actually left my wallet in the car when I went in... unfortunately my wife was with me and she had her wallet and checkbook, and we fell for it anyway. I would leave your credit cards, checkbook, and everything except your driver's license home when I went if I were you... like I said, these guys are VERY good.

What if, say, someone did get baited & hooked, and it's been 6 months with no working website and no sales? Does that person have any options?

The person I refer to is already mortally embarrassed after reading this whole thread and wishes he had some more thorough research.

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Originally Posted by dreamweaver

I sent an email to the guy who did the presentation, telling him, after consulting with my attorney, we were cancelling out contract, stopping payment on our checks, closing thebank account, cancelling the credit card, etc. Here is his response:

sorry to hear that
i hope your attorney is a wealthy man
he gave you bad advice in my opinion.............
but what do i know....i am no attorney...... but, i probably make more then most of the lawyers in my town ;o)
i can do nothing for you on the cancelation side
follow the instruction on the pink forms and good luck

My wife and I disagree on the intimation of this response. When you read it, what do you think he meant?

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Hi, Dreamweaver,

My take on the slimebag's reply is that he's pissed off that he lost a commission and, just for sour grapes, is trying to subtly imply/threaten that your cancellation won't be processed. As for the remark about your lawyer needing to be wealthy (as though he's going to sue him, but notice he didn't even ask your lawyer's name), he's just blowing smoke because he's mad that a lawyer talked you through the right steps. The remark about him being wealthier than the lawyers in his town is just to make you have second thoughts about cancellation - in other words, you lost out on a chance to become as wealthy as he is by cancelling.

The whole reply is just lashing out. It should be a reminder of what calculating, unprofessional scumbags you narrowly avoided. Was this the reply of a business professional? Of course not. It's a no-brainer that a professional, honest business person would never reply in such a way. I wouldn't let it worry me if I were you.

I strongly urge you and your wife to never, ever sign up for one of these things again, no matter how good it sounds. NEVER! It's a sting operation and many honest, trusting people have been seriously damaged and even bankrupted by these kinds of operations. The operators of these ventures are extremely nasty vultures and they play hardball from the minute you show up. You are a "mark" to them. They are grifters in the extreme.

Let us know if you escaped cleanly or if they still managed to get a hook into you. Did you get your certified mail cards back signed as delivery accepted?

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Originally Posted by dreamweaver

Is one of the people in the advertorial a guy named Mike Symes? If so he is probably going to be the speaker.

Clickincome is a typical pyramid scheme. They bait you into thinking it is a seminar on making money through Ebay. After you sit through the first day and pay your $99.00 (or whatever it is this week) they bait you to come to the next day's seminar where they will "reveal the secrets of making big $$$". When you go to that seminar you are reeled into the program. The program is that you sign up, give them $4000, sign up for merchant services at exorbatant rates, and scan phish ebay sellers to try to get them to sign up for a "free" website. Once you get a positive response from an ebay seller, they hound the person and, if they sign up for the program, you make a commission. And on, and on it goes.

These guys are good... very good at baiting and enticing you into getting into the program. Be very careful if you go... you might be surprised at how gullible you can be if you are not aware.

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Actually, Clickincome is a sting operation, not a pyramid. Yes, there's the suggestion of a pyramid in there, but you may or may not ever get paid the commission and you may or may not ever find out if the person you phished from Ebay ever signed up. The thing is, if you pay Clickincome $4k and you phish somebody that signs up for the $99pm website, how many commissions will it take for you to earn back your $4k plus all the other stuff they charge your credit cards for each month? Right off the bat they hook people for the $99pm and talk them out of using Paypal for their drop-shipping orders of the overpriced crap in their supposed warehouse (that everybody else is trying to sell on the websites that may or may not ever materialize) in order to get them to sign up for their grossly overpriced merchant account. That's a sting.

By the way, neither the merchant accounts nor the websites belong to the signees/lessees. They're actually leased and you, the signee/lessee, can be shut out of them at any time anyway. Also, just logging onto your leased site is deemed as acknowledgment of their fee increases, too.

It just goes on and on. It's really, really ugly, and a whole lot nastier than an old-fashioned pyramid scheme. :eek:

Hi, This post is very informative, however I would like some specific information. If someone can help me then please send me a private message. Best Regards,

Pakistan Property | Wholesale Suppliers
Wholesale Canadian Directory | All UK Wholesalers

I went to a "training" seminar in McAllen TX on Friday, 6/22/07. The speaker was Michael Syme, a single father from Utah who was promoted as being the "#1 Seller on Ebay" according to my 16 year old brother. See http://www.keystomakingmoney.com/bio.html.

I attended the seminar at the request of my father who for years has been interested in making money on Ebay. He and my brother attended the first seminar 2 days prior to the Friday seminar. Just before the Friday seminar my father showed me the paperwork he has signed at the end of the Wed seminar.

He had 2 contracts. One labeled a "Non-Cancelable Installment Contract" with Aria Financial Corp. in which he was to pay $2,000 over a 36 month period at an interest rate of 18%. The monthly charge was going to be $69.95 a month for 3 years. The contract describes the services purchased as an "E-commerce Integration Package. Includes: Merchant Reseller Program, Merchant Account Application, Virtual Terminal License, Virtual Terminal Setup, Virtual Terminal Integration with Merchant Account and Virtual Terminal Integratioin with E-commerce Website"

The second contract was labeled "Merchant Application and Agreement" and was with Cardservice International. It listed a "Monthly Account Fee" for $19.95 a month and a "Montly LinkPoint Secure Payment Gateway Fee" for $20.00 a month. The service rendered was the ability to process credit card payments. In addition to the monthly charges there was a charge for each credit card transaction. The Qualified Rate was 2.39% per transaction. The higher, Non-Qualified rate was 1.95% + $.13 per transaction. However, the contract does not state the difference between which transactions are qualified and which are non-qualified.


After reading through the contracts I quickly advised my father to cancel both agreements. The $2,000 "Non-cancellable Installment Contract" was complete bogus. Most of those services, such as a Virtual Terminal, are included with merchant services programs. Other charges were completely made up. There is no such thing as a Virtual Terminal License and anyone who pays $2,000 to file an application (Merchant Account Application) is surely being taken for a ride.

Additionally, both contracts were completely one-sided basically eliminating all of the consumer's rights to sue while completely holding the company not liable for any damages.

For example, here are a few provisions under the Merchant Application and Agreement:

13.1 IN NO EVENT SHALL EITHER PARTY, OR THEIR AFFILIATES OR ANY OF THEIR RESPECTIVE DIRECTORS, OFFICERS, EMPLOYEES, AGENTS OR SUBCONTRACTORS, BE LIABLE UNDER ANY THEORY OF TORT, CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY OR OTHER LEGAL THEORY FOR LOST PROFITS, LOST REVENUES, LOST BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES, EXEMPLARY, PUNITIVE, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, INDIRECT OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES, EACH OF WHICH IS HEREBY EXCLUDED BY AREEMENT OF THE PARTIES, REGRADLESS OF WHETHER THE DAMAGES WERE FORESEEABLE OR WHETHER ANY PARTY OF ANY ENTITY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES.

13.2 ...OUR CUMULATIVE LIABILITY FOR ALL LOSSES, CLAIMS, SUITS, CONTROVERSIES, BREACHES OR DAMAGES FOR ANY CAUSE WHATSOEVER (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THOSE ARISING OUT OF OR RELATED TO THIS AGREEMENT) AND REGARDLESS OF THE FORM OF ACTION OR LEGAL THEORY SHALL NOT EXCEED, (I) $50,000; OR (II) THE AMOUNT OF FEES RECEIVED BY US PURSUANT TO THE AGREEMENT FOR SERVICES PERFORMED IN THE TWELVE (12) MONTHS, WHICHEVER IS LESS.

26. ALL PARTIES IRREVOCABLY WAIVE ANY AND ALL RIGHTS THEY MAY HAVE TO A TRIAL BY JURY IN ANY JUDICIAL PROCEEDING INVOLVING ANY CLAIM RELATING TO OR ARISING UNDER THIS MERCHANT AGREEMENT OR THE SERVICES PROVIDED BY US.

Here is an amazingly one-sided provision under the "Non-Cancellable Installment Contract" under "Other Contract Terms and Conditions":

22. ... I UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO ENFORCE THE CONTRACT AGAINST ME WITHOUT MY ASSERTING OR CLAIMING ANY DEFENSE, OFFSETS, OR COUNTERCLAIMS.

Even if the service were valid I would never allow a client to sign ANY contract with those provisions. You are basically elimiating all our your rights to sue if anything goes wrong.


After I reviewed the contracts and advised my father to cancel them immediately we then attended the Friday training seminar with Michael Syme. Michael did a great job of promising easy money by working only 8-7 hours a week at home. He claimed that one could easily make $10,000 a month. He also repeatedly promised that in 6 months our financial situation would change.

The seminar was a powerpoint presentation showing his method of developing multiple streams of income from Ebay. As mentioned by previous posters the entire system is a method for subverting Ebay by diverting Ebay's customers from Ebay and directing them to your ClickIncome hosted website and encouraging others to do the same.

In fact, Michael Syme made Ebay sound very unprofitable and discouraged it's use. He said Ebay is not a place to get top dollar for goods. That it has, in fact, become a giant wholeseller. He even mentioned one example where he purchased an Eric Clapton signed guitar for $3250 on Ebay and turned around and sold it through a memorabilia magazine for $38,000.

Michael Symes is not promoting Ebay, he's suggesting ways to undermine it.

Here are the 5 streams of income using Ebay that Michael Symes promoted:
1.) Selling directly on Ebay
2.) Selling from your own website to people you solicit off Ebay
3.) Receiveing $600 from ClickIncome for each person you refer who signs up for the Non-Cancellable Installment Contract. ($70 /mo x 36 months)
4.) Receiving $450 from ClickIncome for each person you refer who purchases a webhosting service.
5.) Selling the "ClickIncome's Search Engine Magic" CD for $99. You download the program and burn, print and mail a cd to customers. But first you must purchase the copyright for $300.


I found their prices overblown. The $2,000 E-commerce integration package was bogus. The merchant services agreement at $40.00 was twice as expensive as anything the local banks offer. The webhosting prices were outrageous. The Executive package which has 4,000 email address and 10,000 email messages a month cost $2,500 a year!


At the end of the evening they wanted everyone to sign up as an Executive. As a ClickIncome Executive you would get to print out business cards which said you were an executive for ClickIncome and you would get a totebag. The cost....$5,000.

Of course, to entice us to become an Executive, they offered to waive the $2,000 Non-Cancelable Installment Contract, the $2,500 Executive webhosting package, the $300 copyright for the "Search Engine Magic" cd.... all for only $4000 if we signed up that moment.

My father and I got up and walked straight out the door and I saw many others follow us.

I'm a former employee of Clickincome, Inc. whose parent company is Pangaea Group, Inc. out of Sandy, Utah. They have sister companies such as World Net Services, Aria Financial / Mortgage Services, Argos Technologies, and Elite Marketing Systems / EMSUT who has changed their name to Evolution Management Systems -- you can look it all up at:
https://secure.utah.gov/bes/action/index
and
http://www.sandy.utah.gov/UpDownload...by-titleA.html
Sometimes Clickincome is referred to as "Click Income" but Clickincome is how it's spelled on the state records.

I worked there from approximately March 23, 2004 through August 25, 2005.

Here are some suggestions ordered by importance:

#1 - no matter what company it is, always try to work out the problem with them first!
Don't go making a formal complaint unless you've first exhausted trying to work things out with them. Be willing to listen to them with your heart and at the same time don't compromise on true principles.
At the same time, never, never accept signing a gag order. Only justices of the public courts should make gag orders.

Our credit records are out there for 7 years and a company should be held accountable for mistakes for a certain period of time until
they can show a clean record for at least a couple of years. Resolving concerns with a public company is different than resolving concerns privately with a friend.

#2 - If the above doesn't work after a reasonable amount of time, then contact the Utah Division of Consumer Protection.
Here's their complaint form:
http://consumerprotection.utah.gov/e...complaint.html
After you mail or fax the complaint form, then call them to follow up at (801)530-6601.

#3 - If you feel that you were lied to or exaggerated to, then you can always hire a consumer advocate -- I recommend Carl Shoolman of CX.org.
He is very tenacious on getting a resolution without a gag order. He does not sell out and his fee is $43 plus no more than 10% of your refund but it can be as low as 5%.
http://cx.org

#4 - File a complaint with the FTC -- http://ftc.gov/bcp/index.shtml

#5 - Contact the BBB -- http://www.utah.bbb.org/

+++UPDATE: I believe that Clickincome is better now than they were 2 years ago. You really should give them the opportunity to fix things first in a timely manner before having a knee jerk reaction and assuming the worst.

I know from talking recently with their manager Troy Stevens that they have been firing their unscrupulous sales guys -- they are trying to clean house and I give them credit for that.

They still have a ways to go though to be excellent but they're trying.
+++

Sincerely, a concerned citizen and brother,

Roger L. Brown
http://downtownweb.com

P.S. Happy Independence Day! :)

What exactly is clickincome? Are they just another comp shop?

www.zenmonster.com

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slabeye

What exactly is clickincome? Are they just another comp shop?

---

No, but there are a couple of different meanings of "comp" shop.

It seems like they are a business opportunity / web hosting / merchant account provider / web education company.

They run seminars about eBay and making money through the Internet -- their ads in newspapers look a lot like this website of theirs:
http://www.keystomakingmoney.com/

In their newspaper ads they'll show pictures with testimonials from other people too. One of the people in a past ad in 2006 was a coworker that i mentored -- in other words one of the testimonials in an old ad was from an employee of Clickincome -- Michael Clark.

Peace out,

Roger Brown

I have just followed your advice having been jerked around by clickincome for two years now. Thanks for the tidbits.. you have anything more. I would love to communicate directly.

Thursday, August 02, 2007

I just attended the seminar...and bought into the $99.00 kit....then last night I attended the seminar section with Mike Symes...I kept feeling that making money this way was really being part of the problem with our world...but I must admit it sounds like it really works...but well...it is SUPPOSED TO sound like it really will work isn't it...? I am hoping I am not in trouble having bought the $99.00 website kit...any input here?...thanks for your time....

Clickincome is dedicated to providing excellent customer service and continues to improve its services and systems. We work to satisfy all concerns, whether you are a client or not.



We remain faithful to our clients, fixing problems and overcoming misunderstandings. Clickincome prides itself on it continual growth and a focus on providing the best possible educational experience for your investment. We will deal with each complaint on a case-by-case basis and consistently strive for excellence in resolutions. Those who complain are always heard and we greet them and service their complaint the same as we greet our thousands of satisfied, successful clients.



We urge you to contact Clickincome directly at 1-800-576-9441 or email us at [email protected] immediately to identify and attend to your concerns. We are here to help.



America enjoys freedom of speech and we here at Clickincome honor our American heritage and welcome any and all comments and feedback. Remember, even our competitors and disgruntled employees can post negative blogs. Many negative blogs and forums are meant to drive traffic to their own site and are posted by individuals who have never been involved with the Clickincome program in any way. Websites that boast negative reviews of products or services are generally trying to sell you something they produced or relabeled. This is a common occurrence in any rapidly growing niche industry.



Clickincome and parent company are enjoying over 14 years in business and have thousands of successful clients and students. One can expect any company in business this long servicing the public to have complaints; it is how the company handles those complaints that sets them apart. Our wish is that all questions or concerns had come to us first so we could have expedited the matter and satisfied the parties involved.



Clickincome

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClickIncome

Clickincome is dedicated to providing excellent customer service and continues to improve its services and systems. We work to satisfy all concerns, whether you are a client or not.

---

I appreciate that and I believe it now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClickIncome

... Those who complain are always heard and we greet them and service their complaint the same as we greet our thousands of satisfied, successful clients.

---

Wait, you're not going to come 100% clean if you can't back up your claims -- where are the "thousands of successful clients"?

I don't see them at http://clickincome.com/clickincome_testimonials.php
There are 6 testimonials there and only 1 link to a successful clients website.
If you expect us to believe that it's "thousands of successful clients" then you better back it up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClickIncome

We urge you to contact Clickincome directly at 1-800-576-9441 or email us at [email protected] immediately to identify and attend to your concerns. We are here to help.

---

I think you can believe them on this -- please contact them first before sharing your story here or elsewhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ClickIncome

America enjoys freedom of speech and we here at Clickincome honor our American heritage and welcome any and all comments and feedback. Remember, even our competitors and disgruntled employees can post negative blogs.

---

They're trying to downplay the informative posts from former customers and employees about them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ClickIncome

Many negative blogs and forums are meant to drive traffic to their own site and are posted by individuals who have never been involved with the Clickincome program in any way.

---

Again, Clickincome is trying to divert your attention. My posts are not meant to drive traffic to my own websites but is meant to help people that have serious concerns that were not being resolved in a timely manner as well as to warn the public until Clickincome gets its past cleaned up 100%.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ClickIncome

Websites that boast negative reviews of products or services are generally trying to sell you something they produced or relabeled. This is a common occurrence in any rapidly growing niche industry.

---

This part is true -- some, not all -- some websites offer reviews of Clickincome and a whole bunch of other money marketing opportunities in order to sell you their service. Those websites are not true consumer advocacy websites but instead are just trying to sell you their stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ClickIncome

Clickincome and parent company are enjoying over 14 years in business and have thousands of successful clients and students.

---

How long has Clickincome been in the business of selling the web education / business opportunity packages? What year did Clickincome get started doing what they're currently doing?

And again, show us the "thousands of successful clients" of Clickincome. Show us their websites. I will edit this post if I'm incorrect. I'm just going based on what is publicly available.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClickIncome

One can expect any company in business this long servicing the public to have complaints;

---

Of course that's true but it is the number of complaints compared to number of past and current customers that gives you the big picture. It's also important to ask these questions:
* What percentage of new customers come from referrals from current or former customers?
* What percentage of students make back their initial investment within 6 months or within 12 months?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClickIncome

it is how the company handles those complaints that sets them apart. Our wish is that all questions or concerns had come to us first so we could have expedited the matter and satisfied the parties involved.

Clickincome

---

Yes, I believe that. But you can't cover up the sins and mistakes of your previous sales guys and other bad apples. You have to come fully clean and take responsibility for what they did. As their employer you have to apologize for their sins/mistakes.

Any private investigator can look up your credit report or mine and read it. Why should not the public know about your recent past?

With a company that does business with the public, they should be willing to have their record be open -- both the problems and the resolutions should be open for the public to see.

Then after a clean track record of a few years or whatever is fair -- then i agree that the complaints should be taken down. I honestly believe in forgiving and forgetting after enough time has passed. I would like to do that with Clickincome but their refusal to take 100% responsibility for their actions is what is holding them back. Of course they can't completely control all their employees but as a corporation they have to apologize for whatever any of their employees do -- personally i think they should make their ex-sales guys get on here and apologize or at least apologize privately to those customers they have offended.

As the public can see my intentions are honorable. Let the public be the judges according to their own consciences.

Roger L. Brown
Provo, Utah
former employee of Clickincome, Inc. from March 2004 -> August 2005

Reading all of these replies , especially Roger Browns, has lead me to 2 conclusions. Clickincome has alot of enemies, and may have bad karma coming back at them, but seems to be not hiding which doesnt completely make them evil maybe incompetent or overwhelmed or dealing with people with unrealistic expectations when starting a business. #2) Roger Brown i believed you at first but there comes a point when someone babbles on for so long with no point with no substance and such a High opinion of themself, that I started to defend that company in my mind and wonder who the real loser is. if this is how you spend your time, and with what motive i dont know, i question your credibility. You undeniably think higher of yourself than you ought. I've never heard of a "former" employee" with so much to say and express and who was happy anyways. i will never do business with clickincome or support the cause you are promoting, whether it be your religion or yourself, who knows? theres just so much babble. Do yourself a favor and get out in your community and spend your energy helping the poor, homeless people of America. Thats what a winner would do. anyone can type, it burns no calories, do something in life that takes real effort, then let somneone else pat you on the back not yourself. Sorry if this sounds personal but your last post of God-like arrogance really turned me off to you.

August 17th, 2007:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thetruth

Reading all of these replies , especially Roger Browns, has lead me to 2 conclusions. Clickincome has alot of enemies, and may have bad karma coming back at them, but seems to be not hiding which doesnt completely make them evil maybe incompetent or overwhelmed or dealing with people with unrealistic expectations when starting a business.

---

Do you believe that the complaints are only the result of people with unrealistic expectations?
I agree that some that I experienced while an employee were partially the result of unrealistic expectations -- expectations that had been built up by their sales guys && then also by the customers' own imaginations.

Did you also believe that there was false statements made to some of the customers?
Is that not what you said previously?
You fought pretty vigorously against them less than 4 months ago:

April 30, 2007:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thetruth

I and three friends were also frauded by clickincome. I feel sorry for anyone who gets involved with this organization, if I had done my home work before, I would have realized that all the companies clickincome have been associated with or link with from the clickincome website, have no substantial credibility, but have evasive and elusive contact information, and even the "president" of the company isn't honest about who he is (bryan mcadams) is actually the owner. Thru my research (contacting Utah consumer Protection) he is facing charges and has experienced a tremendous amount of heat and it is just a matter of days before he is indicted. I paid almost $12,000 dollars to them and encouraged some of my friends to do the same, I feel responsible for there loss. I have a high profile attorney in the salt lake area who is preparing a class action against the company with over 61 people nation wide signed on! Stay tuned! but more importantly Stay away!

---

Now back to yesterday, August 17th:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by thetruth

#2) Roger Brown i believed you at first but there comes a point when someone babbles on for so long with no point with no substance and such a High opinion of themself, that I started to defend that company in my mind and wonder who the real loser is. if this is how you spend your time, and with what motive i dont know, i question your credibility. You undeniably think higher of yourself than you ought. I've never heard of a "former" employee" with so much to say and express and who was happy anyways. i will never do business with clickincome or support the cause you are promoting, whether it be your religion or yourself, who knows? theres just so much babble. Do yourself a favor and get out in your community and spend your energy helping the poor, homeless people of America. Thats what a winner would do. anyone can type, it burns no calories, do something in life that takes real effort, then let somneone else pat you on the back not yourself. Sorry if this sounds personal but your last post of God-like arrogance really turned me off to you.

---

I'm not sure why you misunderstand me now. You say that I've babbled on with no point and no substance. Where exactly do you believe that I have had no point and no substance?

Your post above seems to be guilty of what you are accusing me of. You give no proof of your accusations.
I feel like I'm fighting for what's right without being arrogant. Please don't twist my boldness into arrogance in your mind.

The points that have been made are of substance -- go back and read them.

You've cast aspersions on my motives -- you are speculating with no substance to your doubts.

You have not given me the benefit of the doubt and it's ironic that you do not know of the community service that I give every month.

I'm also the chairman of a local grassroots city watchdog group.
One of our very biggest issues is fighting some elites in city government over their attitude and laws that hurt the poor when it comes to affordable housing for all. The suffering that city officials and vocal special interest groups have caused is really sad.
It's extremely ironic what you've accused me of. Next time please ask and give me the benefit of the doubt before speculating.

It is a fair question to ask what are my motives in posting here -- i.e. why am I here doing this?

#1 - to clear my own conscience since in a relatively few instances i exaggerated with the students that I taught. I exaggerated my own marketing skills in getting one of my websites up to 50,000+ pageviews a month. The number was true but it was not due to big marketing prowess that it got to be that way. I also feel bad that i stayed with a company that i did not believe in anymore and that i mostly hid how i felt from my students. it's not fair to stay with a company that you don't believe in. But i'm human and i was desperate for work and to pay my bills and so i stayed longer than i should have. my students have been gracious and kind and understanding in forgiving me. You can ask them -- they feel that i was the most honest person that they dealt with there.

#2 - to help students that feel that they were outright lied to or exaggerated to. there are business opportunity laws in Utah that legally they can file a complaint with. I also spend a little bit of my time in posting on discussions about other companies in Utah. Companies for which I have no connection. I want to let people know about the Utah Division of Consumer Protection. Utah has a black eye as the result of unscrupulous schemes and questionable seminar sales practices and I would like more people outside of Utah to not have a knee jerk reaction due to the bad apples here. I'm not some whiner that complains without offering hope. I do not criticize without offering suggestions for improvement. Even Troy Stevens at Clickincome can back me up on that one. I still suggest that they give the mentoring lessons to each of their sales guys so that they understand better what they're selling.

#3 - to help prevent it from happening again -- remember my experiences are 2 years ago but yet we still have people currently complaining about similar problems in the present.

#4 - in my last post I spoke favorably of my impression of Clickincome trying to fix things quicker than they did while i was there 2 years ago. Please re-read what i wrote. i believe that they're moving in the right direction. I hope that they see it through to the very end -- until everything is resolved completely. Because things don't go away on their own.

Please believe me when I say that I believe in what I'm fighting for though I'm not perfect. If I can be shown where I have mistakenly supported a cause then I am not afraid to change my mind. I am not afraid to change my mind when I can be shown part of the bigger picture that I had missed.

I'm trying to be both bold and humble and as people can see I'm not perfect at it.
Don't shoot down the valid points just because the speaker is imperfect. My heart is trying to help.
And I believe that they are moving towards the right direction now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clickincome

We urge you to contact Clickincome directly at 1-800-576-9441 or email us at [email protected] immediately to identify and attend to your concerns. We are here to help.

---

Sincerely,

Roger L. Brown
Provo, UT